You bet - 10gen will scale on top of any IaaS, or even I without the "aaS" by manually adding systems to the pools.
I'm hearing more and more about the need for open standards. I think this is very important moving forward - especially as each level in the aaS pyramid become more complex, interoperability will be essential.
Thoughts?
Shane
On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 4:38 AM, Alexis Richardson <alexis.richardson@gmail.com> wrote:
Stu,
I think your argument holds if expressed using universal quantifiers ;-)
1. Existing IT applications don't scale easily EVER (they ALL require knowledge)
2. ANY PaaS infrastructure can ALL scale easily (somehow - the
knowledge needed is ALL hidden)
3. Just rewrite ALL your applications to ANY PaaS!
Clearly this is false. However - as you imply at the end - there may
be cases where sufficiently generic patterns are needed to scale SOME
applications, so that SOME PaaS can scale 'for you easily'.
Thus a variant of (2) is:
2. OUR PaaS infrastructure can scale easily (but don't worry how)
It strikes me that vendors will be forced to make this claim. Doing
so may be reasonable. But it's invidious - becuase no two PaaS
vendors will scale in the same way - but they won't say what scales
well and what badly, and why. App Dev may be none the wiser until
several stages into production. And by then they may not have budget
(or energy) to get out. They are locked in. To borrow from Simon
Wardley they have been bitten in the aaS.
There are three ways out of this:
A. Use IaaS not PaaS, and your own P layer on top of the I. For
example Gigaspaces, and afaict 10gen, Stax can all in principle run on
any IaaS cloud and some even do.
B. Insist on using an open framework so that it is clearer which parts
of the P scale and why, and which do not. And people can improve the
framework, and they can compete in QoS by implementing it better.
C. Learn by doing - use PaaS and develop industry lore on what works
and what doesn't.
I predict that we shall see a lot of C and some A but very little B,
unless people want it.
alexis
On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 5:37 AM, Stuart Charlton
<stuartcharlton@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm curious about this theory - I call it the SSS - or, "secret scalability
> sauce theory". I recognize this is going to be something of a generalized
> argument, so please undersatnd I'm not trying to to attribute this argument
> to you, just that your post certainly has a familiar ring to it.
> The theory goes like this:
> 1. Existing IT applications don't scale easily (they require knowledge)
> 2. PaaS infrastructure can scale easily (somehow - the knowledge needed is
> hidden)
> 3. Just rewrite your applications to PaaS!
> Variants of theory include "Why can't we all be like Google?", and "Shared
> Nothing* Uber Alles".
> (*For certain values of nothing)
> My ambivalent feelings towards this theory include:
> If Hybrid clouds are the bridge to the Enterprise, then is PaaS going to
> succeed as a black box?
> - I don't really think that's what Microsoft's doing. They're allowing you
> to take a limited set of .NET applications - as they work today - and with
> some relatively minor integration tweaks, have them run in the Azure cloud.
> Many of the traditional problems with session state , for example,
> still exist, unless you punt to a pure cloud service like SSDS.
> - "Rewrite" is probably a non-starter, considering how many rewrites we've
> had (Java/Web, SOA, etc....)
> - There was a clustering debate back in the 1990's - shared nothing had many
> problems then, it still has many problems now for a significant proportion
> of enterprise IT workloads. Not to say it won't become ever more popular,
> I have a feeling it will. Just that it's a very big hammer looking for
> nails of a particular shape and size.
>
> - Is Cloud just about fast scalability? Isn't the need to deal with bursts
> is more of a public Web phenomenon than an Enterprise IT workload problem?
>
> In sum, I tend to believe PaaS works well for some classes of applications,
> but I am skeptical about it fitting the majority of enterprise applications.
>
> Cheers
> Stu
>
>
> On 17-Dec-08, at 12:36 PM, gaberger wrote:
>
> All I have to say is "Azure". If you look at the business model you will see
> that PaaS (in all its incarnations ) will develop into a number of common
> frameworks able to work together as easy as .NET, Java or Python. This will
> unleash the power of scalability never seen before.
>
> My .02
> -g
>
>
> On 12/17/08 2:51 PM, "Ricky Ho" <rickyphyllis@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I have some doubt about how far PaaS can go. Here is why ...
>
> The core value of PaaS is the set of "higher level" services with extremely
> high scalability that the cloud vendor provides. However, there is
> substantial amount of risks associated to its users.
>
> Your application is locked in a proprietary API and so it depends on the
> vendor's support. Imagine the situation that you build your apps on Google
> App Engine, or Saleforce's Force platform. And one day, they decide to
> focus in other business (remember that cloud computing hasn't brought major
> revenue stream to any of these provider companies). What are you going to
> do with your poor application which can't even be run in somewhere else ?
>
> How about waiting our industry to come up with an cloud API standard ? Not
> mentioning it will take years to get to that point. When that has happened,
> I bet there will be a whole bunch of open source implementation to choose
> from. So instead of using the PaaS plaform, why don't you just use IaaS and
> run whatever software stack you like on top of it. Think about the
> situation if you are building your app on Amazon AWS, you pick the
> appropriate software stack (e.g. HBase will provide you with the equivalent
> storage service of Google App Engine). This way you have more choices on
> what API you like to bind to. Now, when Amazon decide to move out from
> their cloud business, you can move the application back to your inhouse
> environment and everything will continues to run as before.
>
> In fact, one of the reason why IaaS usage mode is gaining much wider
> acceptance than PaaS is because existing applications doesn't need to be
> rewritten before they can be run in the cloud. IaaS provides a low barrier
> entry for users to get some hands on cloud experience. But PaaS requires a
> complete application rewrite, which is much harder to commit.
>
> However, IaaS is not without its problem. For example, in the Amazon aws
> case, there are some technical issues which need to be resolved. For those
> who are interested, I put some technical issues of Amazon AWS here at:
> http://horicky.blogspot.com/2008/11/amazon-web-services.html
>
> Rgds,
> Ricky
> ________________________________
> From: Shane Brauner <shane.brauner@gmail.com>
> To: cloud-computing@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 10:44:29 AM
> Subject: [ Cloud Computing ] Re: Will Cloud Displace Internal IT Services
> For Data Centers?
>
> In current incarnations, your major cloud options are mainly IaaS - you get
> virtualized hardware just like a colo. It's at the next levels up where
> you're going to start seeing more inroads into internal IT.
>
> I'm coming at this from the Infrastructure / Platform / Software tri-cloud
> perspective. At the platform layer, you no longer need to concern yourself
> with any of the OS/Hardware/VM management, configuration, or administration.
> You focus on your code, and forget about the machines. That's going to
> have a big impact on internal IT.
>
> Granted - clearly not every application is suited for this. But it's a
> changing world. There are aspects of business for which this is a great fit
> and they'll be early adopters. This will spur development of more features
> and functionality which will in turn allow for adoption by a broader market.
> It's a feedback loop.
>
> Shane
>
> --
> Shane Brauner
> http://www.10gen.com/
> http://twitter.com/shanebrauner
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 10:45 AM, Ricky Ho <rickyphyllis@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Right ! Large enterprise is unlikely to displace their internal IT with
> Cloud computing.
>
> However, they will use Cloud Computing in 2 specific ways, which is
> described here ...
> http://horicky.blogspot.com/2008/12/does-cloud-computing-make-sense-for.html
>
> Large enterprises requires a new suite of "management / middleware"
> technology which enable their applications to work in a hybrid environment
> (a mix of public + private cloud). Also note that the cost dynamics in
> public and private cloud is very different. The technology should include a
> cost-aware scheduler that can deploy the application components in the most
> cost effective way.
>
> Rgds,
> Ricky
> ________________________________
> From: "Pietrasanta, Mark" <Mark.Pietrasanta@aquilent.com>
> To: "cloud-computing@googlegroups.com" <cloud-computing@googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 6:32:11 AM
> Subject: [ Cloud Computing ] Re: Gartner: Will Cloud Displace Internal IT
> Services For Data Centers?
>
>
> But again, it seems like people are missing the point:
>
>
>
>
>
> 1) Cloud Computing, at least in any of its current and pending forms,
> does almost nothing to reduce my internal IT staffing needs. It's no better
> than Co-Lo in terms of IT staffing requirements;
>
>
>
> 2) CC is more expensive than *any* of the alternatives, except in fringe
> cases (e.g. those with extremely volatile volume changes, and
> academic/research/"super computing" needs)
>
>
>
>
>
> CC can't possibly replace internal IT services until CC *offers* some form
> of IT services. And the costs have to come way way down before it becomes a
> realistic alternative to Co-Lo (or for the small business, setting up a
> machine under their desk and hiring a college kid to manage it).
>
>
>
>
> From: cloud-computing@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:cloud-computing@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Krishna Kurapati
> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 9:18 AM
> To: cloud-computing@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [ Cloud Computing ] Re: Gartner: Will Cloud Displace Internal IT
> Services For Data Centers?
>
>
>
> My View:
>
>
>
> It also depends on size of organization. For SMBs, Core applications as well
> as non-core applications (if any) will shift to Cloud/SaaS model.
>
> And with recent financial turmoil, many large companies became medium and
> medium became small :)
>
>
>
> Any organization adopting cloud would be security/compliance,
> availability/accessibility.
>
> and portability/migratability.
>
>
>
> These requirements overweigh cost advantages depending on the vertical they
> play into.
>
>
>
> Krishna Kurapati
>
> Cloud Ventures
>
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 3:37 AM, nagarajansankar@gmail.com
> <nagarajansankar@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Here is an interesting article that appeared yesterday.
>
> http://www.informationweek.com/blog/main/archives/2008/12/gartner_will_cl.html?catid=cloud-computing
>
> My take is that possibly Non-mission critical or Non- revenue
> generating applications (the so called departmental applications) in
> enterprises that may form about 20 to 25% of the total IT
> infrastructure and services may find their way to the clouds..
>
> Do share your thoughts...
>
>
> - Sankar
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/nsk007
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -- <image.png>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>
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