Re: Why won't people use clouds: The grey part of the silver lining

I believe there is a class of problems for which cloud computing is
useful. As Mark pointed out they are the class of problems for which the
data has a lesser value than the computed result (think of protein
folding, SETI, etc). There are a set of problems for which cloud
computing might have some value if it were not for the higher risk
involved in releasing the data to the cloud. These companies (people)
will probably never use cloud computing (in the traditional way).

Chuck

Sal Magnone wrote:
>
> Really?
>
>
>
> We put our money in a bank. Our stock certificates are held by a third
> party. We send our legal documents to Iron Mountain.
>
>
>
> The point is, none of these options were popular until the right
> safeguards were put in place, like the FDIC. Eventually reasonable
> security will be assured, competition and easy switching will become
> available, the initial technical kinks will be beat, and people will
> become comfortable with the choices.
>
>
>
> Furthermore, if the economic efficiency of the cloud exceeds the
> economic efficiency of in-house computing at existing companies they
> will eventually switch. Almost all companies hit some point in their
> growth were they scratch for savings. Later it becomes a competitive
> advantage. Startups will start on the cloud when they can't afford
> any other way to get going, and again, later that will be a
> competitive advantage that will force others to adopt the model.
>
>
>
> To use a familiar pop culture reference: This line of thinking reminds
> me of a "Star Trek: The Voyage Home" moment. Remember the scene in the
> hospital elevator with Doctor McCoy :)
>
>
>
> I'm really interested in knowing what you think about this.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> /Sal
>
>
>
> Sal Magnone
>
> +1 646 269 5648
>
>
>
>
>

Re: Why won't people use clouds: The grey part of the silver lining

Ray,

I did no such thing. Nor do I believe in absolutism. Instead what I am
saying is that not all solutions make sense in the cloud - just because
you can doesn't mean you should.

Chuck Wegrzyn

Ray Nugent wrote:
> Bill, you're right, there certainly are - proof positive that there
> are no absolutes :-) While Chuck has characterized folks comfortable
> with putting their data in the cloud as "fools" that's based on his
> version of absolutism - his point of reference. Any discussion here
> that things are absolutely one way or the other is pretty much
> useless. (which means we'll probably get to the 400 post mark :-)
> However, having all the data points about the varying degrees of
> adoption IS useful for folks trying to make a living in this space.
>
> It might be helpful to talk about the businesses that are looking at
> this and the ones that have high aversion to it so we can map out
> where the market adoption is right now and where it might go.
>
> Just my 2 cents
>
> Ray

Re: Why won't people use clouds: The grey part of the silver lining

Oh that is certainly not true! While it is possible that all the
systems will be equally compromised, it isn't the only possibility. I
can just as well build a single system out of thousands that will be hacked.

Chuck

Sassa NF wrote:
> Define a metric for "secure".
>
> More opportunities to be compromised? Maybe. But better chances of
> success?.. That may be true only for non-homogenous systems, and on
> certain conditions. In a *homogenous* system every component perhaps
> has the same probability of successful compromise. Having N replicas
> of the database with exactly the same probability P of compromise does
> not change the chances of compromise (N*(1/N)*P, which is "N" times
> the probability that the particular replica was chosen multiplied by
> the probability of success). It is fair to assume that in a homogenous
> system the probability of attack is distributed uniformly (1/N).
>
> For the messages in transit to N destinations to be significantly
> easier to compromise than one, N must be really large, if we were to
> consider analysis of multiple encryptions of the same message.
>
>
> Sassa

Re: Why won't people use clouds: The grey part of the silver lining

Define a metric for "secure".

More opportunities to be compromised? Maybe. But better chances of
success?.. That may be true only for non-homogenous systems, and on
certain conditions. In a *homogenous* system every component perhaps
has the same probability of successful compromise. Having N replicas
of the database with exactly the same probability P of compromise does
not change the chances of compromise (N*(1/N)*P, which is "N" times
the probability that the particular replica was chosen multiplied by
the probability of success). It is fair to assume that in a homogenous
system the probability of attack is distributed uniformly (1/N).

For the messages in transit to N destinations to be significantly
easier to compromise than one, N must be really large, if we were to
consider analysis of multiple encryptions of the same message.

Sassa

Re: Why won't people use clouds: The grey part of the silver lining

Hey Chuck,

How do those employees work remotely, from home at night or on weekends without their computers? Sounds like this company just shot it's productivity in the foot in order to support the IT infrastructure. Isn't IT infrastructure (and IT in general) supposed to support business productivity?

Ray

Re: Why won't people use clouds: The grey part of the silver lining

Marc,

I agree there are a class of problems where it isn't the data that is
critical but the analysis. That would cover your usage, that of most
physic experiments, protein folding etc. I think what it comes down to
is how easy it is to extract important value from the data.

Chuck Wegrzyn

Marc Evans wrote:
> I could debate how "slight" the volume of data is that I could put in
> the cloud without concern. For example, I collect petabytes worth of
> SPAM and malware on the Internet. It makes a lot of sense for me to
> leave it in-the-cloud in the RAW form. The data that I derive from that
> RAW collection is what has value to me, and requires somewhat more
> careful security considerations.
>
> Likewise, I believe the many companies that crawl the web collecting
> copies of sites for a variety of uses could store that raw data in the
> cloud with little/no risk. Like myself, their derived data resulting
> from whatever analysis/computations they perform is what they may need
> to protect.
>
> I will grant you that the examples above are not what I believe that you
> or most others discussing data security in the cloud are pondering. It
> does however serve as examples of data that is likely to be in the cloud
> today.
>
> - Marc

Re: Why won't people use clouds: The grey part of the silver lining

I could debate how "slight" the volume of data is that I could put in
the cloud without concern. For example, I collect petabytes worth of
SPAM and malware on the Internet. It makes a lot of sense for me to
leave it in-the-cloud in the RAW form. The data that I derive from that
RAW collection is what has value to me, and requires somewhat more
careful security considerations.

Likewise, I believe the many companies that crawl the web collecting
copies of sites for a variety of uses could store that raw data in the
cloud with little/no risk. Like myself, their derived data resulting
from whatever analysis/computations they perform is what they may need
to protect.

I will grant you that the examples above are not what I believe that you
or most others discussing data security in the cloud are pondering. It
does however serve as examples of data that is likely to be in the cloud
today.

- Marc

Re: Why won't people use clouds: The grey part of the silver lining

I can't speak for Ray but I've run into the same situation. Most of the
customers I have all host their own systems. In fact in one particular
case they have all their employees leave their computers on at night and
harness them as their "cloud". It works very well!

Their data never leaves the building and they harness the power of all
their desktop computers to do the equivalent.

Chuck Wegrzyn

Re: Why won't people use clouds: The grey part of the silver lining

Exactly! That is the point I was making in the comments in the thread
"Issues of data in the cloud"...there is just little way any responsible
firm would do that for critical data. There might be some data that they
would be willing to offload but it has to be slight.

Chuck Wegrzyn

Jim Peters wrote:
> Geez, I just don't get this ... the guys I work with would never
> consider putting data into the hands of a 3rd party, no matter who the
> 3rd party was. I for one cannot imagine ever trusting Google to not be
> reading my email, uninteresting as that would be ...

Re: Why won't people use clouds: The grey part of the silver lining

If your potential customer bought that line they are fools. The data in
the cloud isn't MORE secure, it can't be. There are more people involved
in the systems and hence more opportunities for the data to be compromised.

Chuck Wegrzyn

Ray Nugent wrote:
> I met with a potential customer today and the requisite data security
> questions started to rain down. I asked them how secure the data in
> their data center was and then produced a 2 gig USB drive from my
> pocket and dropped it on the table. It got kind of quiet for a bit and
> then the discussion turned to how much MORE secure data would be in a
> cloud with more control over who has physical access to the data.
> Great discussion though...
>
> Ray

Re: Why won't people use clouds: The grey part of the silver lining

Hi Jim,

Thanks for replying.

On Jul 9, 9:05 pm, "Jim Peters" wrote:
> Geez, I just don't get this ... the guys I work with would never consider
> putting data into the hands of a 3rd party, no matter who the 3rd party was.

Interesting. Do these guys prefer to colo their servers? Or do they
host from within a building/location that they physically control,
100%?

> I for one cannot imagine ever trusting Google to not be reading my email,
> uninteresting as that would be ...

But even so, you still use Gmail -- is that a case where the risks
associated with the cloud are outweighed by the benefits?

Re: Why won't people use clouds: The grey part of the silver lining

Hello,

Comment's in-line below:

On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 10:05 PM, Jim Peters wrote:

Geez, I just don't get this ... the guys I work with would never consider putting data into the hands of a 3rd party, no matter who the 3rd party was.

I think that cloud computing makes sense in some situations and doesn't make sense in other situations. If the data is really sensitive than making use of a 3rd parties cloud may not make sense, but there are some situations where a lot of money can be saved by not having to implement a data center and cloud. If the user just needs the computational power once every six months and has confidence that the 3rd party will keep the data safe than it probably makes sense to use the third parties cloud. If the user needs the cloud every day and the data is classified than it may make sense for the user to build their own cloud.
Anyway, I think there is a spectrum of when it makes sense to make use of a 3rd parties cloud computer and when it makes sense to build a private system. I would hope these are things a good consultant would walk through with a user.

--
Thanks,

Ron Price
801.560.2305
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Re: Why won't people use clouds: The grey part of the silver lining

Geez, I just don't get this ... the guys I work with would never consider putting data into the hands of a 3rd party, no matter who the 3rd party was. I for one cannot imagine ever trusting Google to not be reading my email, uninteresting as that would be ...

On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 8:51 PM, Ray Nugent wrote:

I met with a potential customer today and the requisite data security questions started to rain down. I asked them how secure the data in their data center was and then produced a 2 gig USB drive from my pocket and dropped it on the table. It got kind of quiet for a bit and then the discussion turned to how much MORE secure data would be in a cloud with more control over who has physical access to the data. Great discussion though...

Ray

Re: Why won't people use clouds: The grey part of the silver lining

I met with a potential customer today and the requisite data security questions started to rain down. I asked them how secure the data in their data center was and then produced a 2 gig USB drive from my pocket and dropped it on the table. It got kind of quiet for a bit and then the discussion turned to how much MORE secure data would be in a cloud with more control over who has physical access to the data. Great discussion though...

Ray