Utility Computing aka Cloud Computing

Wednesday, December 24, 2008

[ Cloud Computing ] Re: Cloud Computing ROI model

In a DC you also need to include your networking equipment, software and labor costs. Tape/DVD backup, Disaster Recovery, Real Estate Taxes, building maintenance, insurance, etc. If you come across the argument that starts with "A quad core server costs XYZ $..." walk away.

Ray

From: David Shefter <dshefter@gmail.com>
To: cloud-computing@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2008 7:59:16 AM
Subject: [ Cloud Computing ] Re: Cloud Computing ROI model

I do however think that in order to come up with a tangible ROI model for this, you would need to know all aspects of the operating costs. These include labor, software, hardware, power, network, etc.

Since in an enterprise case, there needs to be redundancy in data centers there is very little likelihood of a straight ROI model - It seems to apply much better if it is crafted on a software or hardware or services move to a cloud.

Thoughts ?

DS

On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 2:41 AM, Geva Perry <gevaperry@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks, Sankar. All your points above are valid, but not relevant to
what I'm looking for. I was hoping that someone had worked on a
calculation they can share that analyzes the cost benefits from
switching to a public cloud from an on-premise data center or a
dedicated hosting environment.

You are raising some of the challenges in migrating to a cloud, which
should of course be taken into account in the little exercise I am
trying to work on, particularly if they add to the costs of moving to
a cloud (management, monitoring, security, etc.) and thus reduce the
ROI of such a move.

On Dec 23, 7:54 pm, Sankar Nagarajan <nagarajansan...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Geva,
>
> All your points holds good.
>
> However, for a knowledgeable customer, there are more selling points
> or differentiators (in terms of your services) needed
>
> * Reliability is seen as an issue on the cloud - How does one address
> this?
>
> * Protection/Security is seen as a major issue on the cloud :- How
> does one address this?
>
> * Cloud deployment for moderate to complex applications is not easy -
> (Custom App-stack/Machine Images) - How does one address this?
>
> * Monitoring ,Management and maintenance of deployed apps are not so
> easy for every app- How is this addressed?
>
> * There are various clouds / cost models , If one can make a
> comparison, consult and be able to help a client to find the best
> choice for their budget and service them
> this would be add punch to the Value -Proposition?
>
> In essence, it is granted that clouds come with their inherent
> benefits and value , However to sell this model effectively with an
> ROI model, from a solution provider or SaaS viewpoint, a number of
> points (i have mentioned a few) have to be considered and factored in
> the value proposition to a end user,dependening on one's capabilities.
>
> Sankar Nagarajanhttp://www.linkedin.com/in/nsk007
>
> On Dec 24, 12:54 am, Geva Perry <gevape...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello all,
>
> > Has anyone developed an ROI model for cloud computing (specifically,
> > public Infrastructure-as-a-Service a-la AWS)?
>
> > I'm trying to demonstrate to a few companies both the hard and "soft"
> > cost-savings of migrating to a public cloud environment. I'm
> > attempting to encompass as many aspects as possible. Including:
>
> > -- Costs savings for servers, storage, networking, software licenses,
> > power & cooling, real estate, system administration labor -- mainly
> > focusing on the possibility to eliminate over-provisioning and scale
> > on-demand with a pay-per-use pricing model
> > -- Costs savings due to decreased provisioning time
> > -- Shortening of application lifecycle and decreased time-to-market of
> > new products and services
> > -- Increased reliability (DR, etc.) at lower costs
> > -- Increased performance
>
> > Of course, the model also needs to take into account various
> > "switching costs".
>
> > If anyone has any concrete thoughts on the matter, or perhaps just
> > links to quantitative case studies, it would be greatly appreciated.
>
> > Geva Perryhttp://gevaperry.typepad.com

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[ Cloud Computing ] Re: Role of Windows Appliances and Cloud

Hello,

If Hypervisor provides more features like task management, and then it becomes an operating system already.

Let's think, when a low level software with the following features:

Memory management (some even provide advanced feature like memory protection)
I/O, device managements & drivers
Task management

It becomes an OS already. From this point Hypervisor will be more like the new generation OS while the upper layer softwares will be more focusing on applications/or even very thin like a browser and all the applications are running on the clouds.

Please correct me if my understanding is wrong.

BTW,
I am very new to this area, and my background is from embedded and multi-core processor for networking and communication system.

Thanks,
Tao

On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 11:56 PM, trimark <m_cathcart@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

Barbara

You ask what is the future of full service OS's and what next.

I'd say this, that its pretty obvious that services will be
increasingly provided by the hypervisor and virtualztion layer, esp
[ecially networking and storage, but also possible virtual memory, I/O
etc.

If the OS running on the hypervisor provides the same service and
doesn't do this WITH the hypervisor then it will be inefficient, and
generate overhead. There are a few possible solutions to this, one is
for the OS NOT to provide the same function, thats unlikely with full
OS's, or as part of initialization, they recognise they are running in
a virtualized environment, and cede that function to the hypervisor.

The latter makes more sense, but requires compatibility between the
hypervisor function and the OS funtion at the application level. For
higher level functions and new technology, thats easy. For lower level
functions this is less likely. It also removes much of the opportunity
for the OS to provide differentiated services.

Back to your question, what of the future for full service os?

I'd predict that most will do their damdest to link themselves with
their own hypervisors. In that way they can continue to provide
differentiated services that allow them to continue to be sold at a
premium. However, these OS's will generally lag behind emerging
composite OS's, where the hypervisor and the OS are made from a
networked, interconnected set of services, with little generation or
overhead between their services.

It would be interesting to know where/how you think IBM solved this
decade ago? As I see it, the only place IBM really solved this was in
VM/CMS. Where there was a strict hypervisor/virtualization layer that
had unique calls for functions, and the CMS OS which developed into a
purely virtualized OS and couldn't run without VM.

Other IBM implementations including AIX on Power did this to a lesser
degree, but really still are full function OS's that use
virtualization sparingly as their host.

We are likely to see an effort obsfucate the OS to providing grouped
higher level services that are interfaces into homogenous full service
OS's, these will provide a single point of automation, management,
etc. as well as scheduling and recovery. In this way, the full
function OS remains and the function that you are looking for from a
cloud is provided by a layer on top of the OS, rather than underneath
the OS at teh hypervisor layer. From a management, operations
perspective there is little differtence. From an apllication and
operational efficiency perspective there is a significant difference.

On Dec 23, 5:24 pm, "Barbara Bour" <barb...@principiainc.com> wrote:
> The complexity that is introduced by black box hypervisors troubles me. I
> feel the solve a problem already solved by IBM and other big box vendors
> decades ago.
>
> So, with that in mind, the whole thing begs the question, what is the future
> of the full service OS?
> Do they morph into a meta OS, that can function in a manner like a
> hypervisor OR full service OS or both (in essence something like a mainframe
> OS).

--
Tao Lu
http://www.linkedin.com/in/taolumr

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[ Cloud Computing ] Re: Will Cloud Displace Internal IT Services For Data Centers?

Interesting perspective. What will drive the success or failure of this peak-use, hybrid cloud computing modeis its ability to save money for the CFO/CIO. For most applications, enterprises normally simply over-provision, suffering additional capex and consequent opex. Opex burden is endured for 100% of year. Capex is a single hit. Virtually providing peak resources on-demand has vale proposition of paying for capital and operations only as needed. If the specific application is only expected to peak with Gaussian probability, AND if the peak only occurs, say, 5% of the year, and if the peak demand MUST be satisfied orthe enterprise suffers from custoer satisfactio or other business metric, then elastic, on-demand hybrid is a fit for the enterprise.

But, the large dynamic that will affect this marketand its likely implementation is labor costs (opex) balanced against performance and cost of operations.

Performance and operations costs being equal, hosting the data center in an environment in which labor costs are lower will drive the pure external cloud model.

Operations costs and labor costs being equal will drive the data center/cloud to be located nearest the centroid of the cloud-rovider's target market to optimiZe performance..

Labor costs and performance being equal, data centers are likely to be hosted in regions in which power, service redundancy, security and other operational aspects are optimized.

Perhaps specific elements of the cloud that fit these three areas may be specifically located to reduce overall costs and optimize performance...a' la' akamai. A hybrid model deliverer will win as they couple a compelling financial model to their business case.

Dave

On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 12:44 PM, Shane Brauner <shane.brauner@gmail.com> wrote:

In current incarnations, your major cloud options are mainly IaaS - you get virtualized hardware just like a colo. It's at the next levels up where you're going to start seeing more inroads into internal IT.

I'm coming at this from the Infrastructure / Platform / Software tri-cloud perspective. At the platform layer, you no longer need to concern yourself with any of the OS/Hardware/VM management, configuration, or administration. You focus on your code, and forget about the machines. That's going to have a big impact on internal IT.

Granted - clearly not every application is suited for this. But it's a changing world. There are aspects of business for which this is a great fit and they'll be early adopters. This will spur development of more features and functionality which will in turn allow for adoption by a broader market. It's a feedback loop.

Shane

--
Shane Brauner
http://www.10gen.com/
http://twitter.com/shanebrauner

On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 10:45 AM, Ricky Ho <rickyphyllis@yahoo.com> wrote:

Right ! Large enterprise is unlikely to displace their internal IT with Cloud computing.

However, they will use Cloud Computing in 2 specific ways, which is described here ...
http://horicky.blogspot.com/2008/12/does-cloud-computing-make-sense-for.html

Large enterprises requires a new suite of "management / middleware" technology which enable their applications to work in a hybrid environment (a mix of public + private cloud). Also note that the cost dynamics in public and private cloud is very different. The technology should include a cost-aware scheduler that can deploy the application components in the most cost effective way.

Rgds,
Ricky
From: "Pietrasanta, Mark" <Mark.Pietrasanta@aquilent.com>
To: "cloud-computing@googlegroups.com" <cloud-computing@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 6:32:11 AM
Subject: [ Cloud Computing ] Re: Gartner: Will Cloud Displace Internal IT Services For Data Centers?

But again, it seems like people are missing the point:

1) Cloud Computing, at least in any of its current and pending forms, does almost nothing to reduce my internal IT staffing needs. It's no better than Co-Lo in terms of IT staffing requirements;

2) CC is more expensive than *any* of the alternatives, except in fringe cases (e.g. those with extremely volatile volume changes, and academic/research/"super computing" needs)

CC can't possibly replace internal IT services until CC *offers* some form of IT services. And the costs have to come way way down before it becomes a realistic alternative to Co-Lo (or for the small business, setting up a machine under their desk and hiring a college kid to manage it).

From: cloud-computing@googlegroups.com [mailto:cloud-computing@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Krishna Kurapati
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 9:18 AM
To: cloud-computing@googlegroups.com
Subject: [ Cloud Computing ] Re: Gartner: Will Cloud Displace Internal IT Services For Data Centers?

My View:

It also depends on size of organization. For SMBs, Core applications as well as non-core applications (if any) will shift to Cloud/SaaS model.

And with recent financial turmoil, many large companies became medium and medium became small :)

Any organization adopting cloud would be security/compliance, availability/accessibility.

and portability/migratability.

These requirements overweigh cost advantages depending on the vertical they play into.

Krishna Kurapati

Cloud Ventures

On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 3:37 AM, nagarajansankar@gmail.com <nagarajansankar@gmail.com> wrote:

Here is an interesting article that appeared yesterday.

http://www.informationweek.com/blog/main/archives/2008/12/gartner_will_cl.html?catid=cloud-computing

My take is that possibly Non-mission critical or Non- revenue
generating applications (the so called departmental applications) in
enterprises that may form about 20 to 25% of the total IT
infrastructure and services may find their way to the clouds..

Do share your thoughts...

- Sankar
http://www.linkedin.com/in/nsk007

[ Cloud Computing ] Re: Cloud Computing ROI model

I do however think that in order to come up with a tangible ROI model for this, you would need to know all aspects of the operating costs. These include labor, software, hardware, power, network, etc.

Since in an enterprise case, there needs to be redundancy in data centers there is very little likelihood of a straight ROI model - It seems to apply much better if it is crafted on a software or hardware or services move to a cloud.

Thoughts ?

DS

On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 2:41 AM, Geva Perry <gevaperry@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks, Sankar. All your points above are valid, but not relevant to
what I'm looking for. I was hoping that someone had worked on a
calculation they can share that analyzes the cost benefits from
switching to a public cloud from an on-premise data center or a
dedicated hosting environment.

You are raising some of the challenges in migrating to a cloud, which
should of course be taken into account in the little exercise I am
trying to work on, particularly if they add to the costs of moving to
a cloud (management, monitoring, security, etc.) and thus reduce the
ROI of such a move.

On Dec 23, 7:54 pm, Sankar Nagarajan <nagarajansan...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Geva,
>
> All your points holds good.
>
> However, for a knowledgeable customer, there are more selling points
> or differentiators (in terms of your services) needed
>
> * Reliability is seen as an issue on the cloud - How does one address
> this?
>
> * Protection/Security is seen as a major issue on the cloud :- How
> does one address this?
>
> * Cloud deployment for moderate to complex applications is not easy -
> (Custom App-stack/Machine Images) - How does one address this?
>
> * Monitoring ,Management and maintenance of deployed apps are not so
> easy for every app- How is this addressed?
>
> * There are various clouds / cost models , If one can make a
> comparison, consult and be able to help a client to find the best
> choice for their budget and service them
> this would be add punch to the Value -Proposition?
>
> In essence, it is granted that clouds come with their inherent
> benefits and value , However to sell this model effectively with an
> ROI model, from a solution provider or SaaS viewpoint, a number of
> points (i have mentioned a few) have to be considered and factored in
> the value proposition to a end user,dependening on one's capabilities.
>
> Sankar Nagarajanhttp://www.linkedin.com/in/nsk007
>
> On Dec 24, 12:54 am, Geva Perry <gevape...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello all,
>
> > Has anyone developed an ROI model for cloud computing (specifically,
> > public Infrastructure-as-a-Service a-la AWS)?
>
> > I'm trying to demonstrate to a few companies both the hard and "soft"
> > cost-savings of migrating to a public cloud environment. I'm
> > attempting to encompass as many aspects as possible. Including:
>
> > -- Costs savings for servers, storage, networking, software licenses,
> > power & cooling, real estate, system administration labor -- mainly
> > focusing on the possibility to eliminate over-provisioning and scale
> > on-demand with a pay-per-use pricing model
> > -- Costs savings due to decreased provisioning time
> > -- Shortening of application lifecycle and decreased time-to-market of
> > new products and services
> > -- Increased reliability (DR, etc.) at lower costs
> > -- Increased performance
>
> > Of course, the model also needs to take into account various
> > "switching costs".
>
> > If anyone has any concrete thoughts on the matter, or perhaps just
> > links to quantitative case studies, it would be greatly appreciated.
>
> > Geva Perryhttp://gevaperry.typepad.com

[ Cloud Computing ] Re: Role of Windows Appliances and Cloud

Barbara

You ask what is the future of full service OS's and what next.

I'd say this, that its pretty obvious that services will be
increasingly provided by the hypervisor and virtualztion layer, esp
[ecially networking and storage, but also possible virtual memory, I/O
etc.

If the OS running on the hypervisor provides the same service and
doesn't do this WITH the hypervisor then it will be inefficient, and
generate overhead. There are a few possible solutions to this, one is
for the OS NOT to provide the same function, thats unlikely with full
OS's, or as part of initialization, they recognise they are running in
a virtualized environment, and cede that function to the hypervisor.

The latter makes more sense, but requires compatibility between the
hypervisor function and the OS funtion at the application level. For
higher level functions and new technology, thats easy. For lower level
functions this is less likely. It also removes much of the opportunity
for the OS to provide differentiated services.

Back to your question, what of the future for full service os?

I'd predict that most will do their damdest to link themselves with
their own hypervisors. In that way they can continue to provide
differentiated services that allow them to continue to be sold at a
premium. However, these OS's will generally lag behind emerging
composite OS's, where the hypervisor and the OS are made from a
networked, interconnected set of services, with little generation or
overhead between their services.

It would be interesting to know where/how you think IBM solved this
decade ago? As I see it, the only place IBM really solved this was in
VM/CMS. Where there was a strict hypervisor/virtualization layer that
had unique calls for functions, and the CMS OS which developed into a
purely virtualized OS and couldn't run without VM.

Other IBM implementations including AIX on Power did this to a lesser
degree, but really still are full function OS's that use
virtualization sparingly as their host.

We are likely to see an effort obsfucate the OS to providing grouped
higher level services that are interfaces into homogenous full service
OS's, these will provide a single point of automation, management,
etc. as well as scheduling and recovery. In this way, the full
function OS remains and the function that you are looking for from a
cloud is provided by a layer on top of the OS, rather than underneath
the OS at teh hypervisor layer. From a management, operations
perspective there is little differtence. From an apllication and
operational efficiency perspective there is a significant difference.

On Dec 23, 5:24 pm, "Barbara Bour" <barb...@principiainc.com> wrote:
> The complexity that is introduced by black box hypervisors troubles me. I
> feel the solve a problem already solved by IBM and other big box vendors
> decades ago.
>
> So, with that in mind, the whole thing begs the question, what is the future
> of the full service OS?
> Do they morph into a meta OS, that can function in a manner like a
> hypervisor OR full service OS or both (in essence something like a mainframe
> OS).

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Tuesday, December 23, 2008

[ Cloud Computing ] Re: Cloud Computing ROI model

Thanks, Sankar. All your points above are valid, but not relevant to
what I'm looking for. I was hoping that someone had worked on a
calculation they can share that analyzes the cost benefits from
switching to a public cloud from an on-premise data center or a
dedicated hosting environment.

You are raising some of the challenges in migrating to a cloud, which
should of course be taken into account in the little exercise I am
trying to work on, particularly if they add to the costs of moving to
a cloud (management, monitoring, security, etc.) and thus reduce the
ROI of such a move.

On Dec 23, 7:54 pm, Sankar Nagarajan <nagarajansan...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Geva,
>
> All your points holds good.
>
> However, for a knowledgeable customer, there are more selling points
> or differentiators (in terms of your services) needed
>
> * Reliability is seen as an issue on the cloud - How does one address
> this?
>
> * Protection/Security is seen as a major issue on the cloud :- How
> does one address this?
>
> * Cloud deployment for moderate to complex applications is not easy -
> (Custom App-stack/Machine Images) - How does one address this?
>
> * Monitoring ,Management and maintenance of deployed apps are not so
> easy for every app- How is this addressed?
>
> * There are various clouds / cost models , If one can make a
> comparison, consult and be able to help a client to find the best
> choice for their budget and service them
> this would be add punch to the Value -Proposition?
>
> In essence, it is granted that clouds come with their inherent
> benefits and value , However to sell this model effectively with an
> ROI model, from a solution provider or SaaS viewpoint, a number of
> points (i have mentioned a few) have to be considered and factored in
> the value proposition to a end user,dependening on one's capabilities.
>
> Sankar Nagarajanhttp://www.linkedin.com/in/nsk007
>
> On Dec 24, 12:54 am, Geva Perry <gevape...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello all,
>
> > Has anyone developed an ROI model for cloud computing (specifically,
> > public Infrastructure-as-a-Service a-la AWS)?
>
> > I'm trying to demonstrate to a few companies both the hard and "soft"
> > cost-savings of migrating to a public cloud environment. I'm
> > attempting to encompass as many aspects as possible. Including:
>
> > -- Costs savings for servers, storage, networking, software licenses,
> > power & cooling, real estate, system administration labor -- mainly
> > focusing on the possibility to eliminate over-provisioning and scale
> > on-demand with a pay-per-use pricing model
> > -- Costs savings due to decreased provisioning time
> > -- Shortening of application lifecycle and decreased time-to-market of
> > new products and services
> > -- Increased reliability (DR, etc.) at lower costs
> > -- Increased performance
>
> > Of course, the model also needs to take into account various
> > "switching costs".
>
> > If anyone has any concrete thoughts on the matter, or perhaps just
> > links to quantitative case studies, it would be greatly appreciated.
>
> > Geva Perryhttp://gevaperry.typepad.com

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[ Cloud Computing ] Re: State of affairs : Moving Healthcare Appli cations to the Cloud..

I saw this presentation on Slideshare today.

http://www.slideshare.net/JustinKestelyn/oracle-in-the-cloud-aws-webinar-presentation

If you go to slide 28 you will see an overview of an Oracle/Amazon solution for Harvard Medical School for a drug simulation application. Not sure what compliance examples they faced but I imagine that a full blown version of that type of solution would be handling lots of patient/participant data at some point. I would venture to say that Amazon is poking around what it takes to offer services in the market so it may be that at the moment that the early clouds are not fully compliant but I suspect that they will figure it out fairly quickly.

Ed Loessi

Ed Loessi
CEO Faulkner Technologies
Email: ed.loessi@faulknertechnologies.com

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On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 10:36 PM, Sankar Nagarajan <nagarajansankar@gmail.com> wrote:

@ Barbara - "And I agree with John, that many applications are not CPU

bound, however
they can be very much storage & latency bound in research areas.
Research
areas have massive amounts of unstructured, high value data to
manage."

Barbara,

I think private clouds for Research organisations that have to do
with huge number crunching and deal with massive amounts of data are
already starting to appear. As an instance, a few weeks ago, HPC (High
performance computing) providers such as RSystems last month partnered
with Wolform Research (the company that develops the popular Mathworks
scientific analysis and reporting tools) on a Cloud computing
initiative.

http://www.rsystemsinc.com

Wolform Research is enabling a pay per use kind of a model (SaaS model
for their software) that will help researchers and firms to rent and
run computing intensive modeling and analysis online.

- Sankar

On Dec 23, 10:05 pm, "Barbara Bour" <barb...@principiainc.com> wrote:
> Dear Cloud Computing Members,
>
> I am really enjoying this stream.
>
> While I agree with John that there is opportunity for routine application
> consolidation, development improvements, etc.. The medical industry is at
> cross roads, where reducing costs will be essential and largely driven by
> external factors: Health Care costs of aging population, and very
> problematic addiction to high margin, block buster drug business model
> within pharma.
>
> Pharma will become the next GM if they don't aggressively apply every trick
> in the book including routing application consolidation/improvements,
> leverage of open source & cloud computing to drive down their burn rates
> because drug profits will be driven down by overwhelming external forces.
>
> Medical will become more dysfunctional and expensive if it continues in its
> current state.
>
> And I agree with John, that many applications are not CPU bound, however
> they can be very much storage & latency bound in research areas. Research
> areas have massive amounts of unstructured, high value data to manage.
>
> _____
>
> From: cloud-computing@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:cloud-computing@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Brothers
> Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 4:57 PM
> To: cloud-computing@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [ Cloud Computing ] Re: State of affairs : Moving Healthcare Appli
> cations to the Cloud..
>
> Yeah, I've done a fair amount of software dev for both the clinical trial
> management side of Pharma as well as Sales and Marketing. I don't see any
> obvious wins for CC in the Sales and Marketing, but then if they were
> obvious, people would be doing them already :)
>
> On the Trial Management side... it seems like there's more potential for CC
> in trial management, but I struggle with what that might look like. They
> generally are never CPU-bound. In other words, there's still a lot of
> potential for plain old regular software development improvements to their
> processes and systems, before we even consider CC.
>
> As web applications for CTM proliferate, I could see the use of clouds to
> manage demand and ease deployment, but that's hardly a killer app.
>
> john
>

> On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 3:16 PM, Jan Klincewicz <jan.klincew...@gmail.com>

> wrote:
>
> It actually gets a little more complicated than that. Pharma typically
> consists of Drug Discovery (the Science part) as well as typical Front
> Office (Corporate, Regulatory, Marketing/Sales etc.) They have totally
> different needs and agendas. I have found the Science side to usually be
> somewhat autonomous and cutting edge, adopting supercomputers, grids, etc...
> much more open to Linux, Open Source etc. The Corporate side is more
> conservative, more MSFT / Solaris-oriented but they equally share regulatory
> compliance painpoints.
>
> Healthcare likewise, comprises clinical operations as well as Insurance
> Processing. On the hospital floors, and in the clinics, you are likely to
> see most apps delivered by Citrix Presentation Server (XenApp) which
> actually does a pretty good job of enforcing security. I can see why it is
> so popular where "locked-down" thin clients have no way to capture patient
> data.
>
> Though I work strictly on the XenServer side of Citrix, I am becoming
> increasingly impressed by how their 18-year-old technology is relevant today
> (even more) in CC environments. They answered a lot of the concerns being
> discussed here over a decade ago ...
>
> I dont see a lot of dBase III apps anymore (which is shame... I was once an
> ace Clipper jockey back in the day ...)
>

> On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 10:21 AM, Sal Magnone <salmagn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>I don't think it's as easy with SoX as saying 'as long as somebody
> >>takes care of compliance issues'...
>
> Yes, but it's common with HIPAA. The easiest way to unload your privacy
> concerns is to actually unload them. Now that doesn't really remove
> liability but it does show a reasonable attempt and spreads the liability
> around. From the perspective of many in healthcare at the top, anybody
> handles IT better than they do.
>
> One thing in this thread that I noted (and this applies to my last
> statement) - we seem to be lumping PHARMA in with Healthcare (actual care
> and care facilities) and healthcare related services (like utilization
> management and TPA activity). These are three different worlds from a
> requirements and corporate IT sophistication standpoint. These three is
> clearly in three different evolutionary places with the odd exception. They
> are also in three different mindsets.
>
> For the most part this is the way I see it-
> PHARMA is about science as well as money and they know how to use technology
> and embrace it.
> CARE is about the same but with much greater aversion to cost and
> complexity. Lot's of COBOL in hospitals. Everything costs too much but
> they'll use if they have to.
> SERVICES is the place where desk fans are cooling i486 boxes with 100meg HDs
> running DBASE III+ apps that are backed up to local tape (maybe).
>
> /Sal
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cloud-computing@googlegroups.com
>
> [mailto:cloud-computing@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Daniel Drozdzewski
> Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 9:43 AM
> To: cloud-computing@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [ Cloud Computing ] Re: State of affairs : Moving Healthcare Appli
> cations to the Cloud..
>
> On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 8:23 PM, Jan Klincewicz

> <jan.klincew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I have sold into many Pharma / Health Care customers, and they do have
> > serious compliance issues. That being said, they were often more than
> > willing to outsource their operations to HP / IBM / EDS etc. As long as
> > SOMEBODY takes care of the compliance issues, I think they will be
> > satisfied. There is no real magic to it, other than reams of
> documentation,
> > paperwork, change controls, lock-downs etc.
>
> Hey guys,
>
> I don't think it's as easy with SoX as saying 'as long as somebody
> takes care of compliance issues'...
>
> Isn't the point of SoX to impose as many in-house safety measures and
> double checks within the company as possible together with reporting
> to regulators?
> (In)famous section 404 talks solely on internal controls and risk
> assessment.
>
> This makes me think, that for the cloud to be picked up by big
> companies (that have great deal of SoX compliance need), cloud vendors
> must provide service that is open to attestation by the customers and
> can provide strong assurance (by the application of crypto, protocols,
> certificates, etc) so that not just a contract with the vendor, but
> used technologies and protocols impose properties needed by the big
> business.
>
> I also agree that 24/7 availability is another issue that needs
> addressing for mission critical apps to me moved up to the clouds.
> Tandem(HP-Non Stop) and few others provide the hardware platform, but
> there is also need for replicating protocols, assurance of data
> integrity across duplicated nodes etc. It is considerably easier to
> run one specialized application on a resilient hardware (stock
> exchange, ATMs, etc) than to provide flexible hosting service that
> remains resilient.
>
> Do you guys know about any such software solutions? Any pointers
> appreciated!
>
> Regards,
>
> Daniel
>
> > Granted, they are harder customers than most, but there is no compelling
> > reason for them to need to do everything in-house as long as regulations
> are
> > met.
>

> > On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 3:05 PM, Johan Louwers <sun...@dds.nl> wrote:
>
> >> I think that specific clouds will come for for example banking, medical
> >> companies and such. The clouds will have been developed with
> consideration
> >> for sox and such requirements.
>
> >> those markets will be small, however the company who will start it will
> be
> >> able to make a fair deal of money from it.
>
> >> regards,
> >> johan louwers.
>
> >> -- origineel bericht --
> >> Onderwerp: [ Cloud Computing ] State of affairs : Moving Healthcare
> >> Applications to the Cloud..

> >> Van: Sankar Nagarajan <nagarajansan...@gmail.com>

> >> Datum: 20-12-2008 19:28
>
> >> Today,Many IT departments are evaluating the privacy, security, and
> >> governance issues of public compute clouds, and some may decide it's a
> >> route they're not willing to take. (See Bob Evans' related post on
> >> InformationWeek's Global CIO blog :http://tinyurl.com/cloud1)
>
> >> On the other side ,There is much debate going on in terms of deploying
> >> certain consumer and medical/healthcare applications with sensitive
> >> or personal consumer data on the cloud (http://preview.tinyurl.com/
> >> cloud2) as being 'Un-ethical,Illegal and Untrustworthy"
>
> >> Another point to consider is , Pharma /Life Sciences companies have
> >> strict FDA and Sarbanes-Oxley related policies and compliance tightly
> >> tied to their IT Systems and operations
>
> >> Given the above, What is your viewpoint on How the trend will evolve
> >> for this industry?
>
> >> Do you think this would be one of the Industry verticals that would
> >> see a *Lower Adoption* of cloud computing?
>
> >> Do you think Technology and solutions are fast evolving that its a
> >> matter of time before Healthcare or Pharma firms will find answers to
> >> the challenges faced by them today? or Would the Cloud Vendors evolve
> >> specific solutions to cater to this industry alone?
>
> >> Please share your views....
>
> >> - SANKAR NAGARAJAN
> >>http://www.linkedin.com/in/nsk007
>
> --
> Daniel Drozdzewski
>
> --
>
> Cheers,
> Jan
>
> --
> 678 467 3504
> Agile Development Blog: IndefiniteArticles.com

> Stone Magic: Stonemagic.Picobusiness.com- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

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Wednesday, December 24, 2008

[ Cloud Computing ] Re: Cloud Computing ROI model

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[ Cloud Computing ] Re: Will Cloud Displace Internal IT Services For Data Centers?

[ Cloud Computing ] Re: Cloud Computing ROI model

[ Cloud Computing ] Re: Role of Windows Appliances and Cloud

Tuesday, December 23, 2008

[ Cloud Computing ] Re: Cloud Computing ROI model

[ Cloud Computing ] Re: State of affairs : Moving Healthcare Appli cations to the Cloud..

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