[ Cloud Computing ] Re: A good analysis of data center costs. Servers dominate...for now.

I'm new to the group, so please forgive if this is redundant.....

The U.S. EPA published a report to congress in August of 2007 regarding the power consumption of data centers including some suggestions for efficiencies.  I found it worth the read.  http://repositories.cdlib.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=6891&context=lbnl

Also, Jonathan Koomey at Lawrence Berkeley National Lab published a paper estimating the power consumption by servers in the U.S. and around the world. Another interesting read, but perhaps somewhat dated from February 2007.  Also, the work is based on the power rating provided by the manufacturer.  http://enterprise.amd.com/Downloads/svrpwrusecompletefinal.pdf

I am surprised, frankly, by the scarcity of credible scientific work in the area (unless my googling ability is limited).  I tend toward the longer view that centralization will lower costs and certainly has much better opportunity for increases in efficiency. 

That said, I think Jim's ammeter approach is an excellent idea until additional studies are published.  Jim, can you measure the draw of the entire room (e.g. cooling equipment, tape drives, etc.)? Also, do you find the server draw to average 82 watts throughout the business day, or just when the server is idle?

The journey to the cloud should result in significant energy efficiencies in the mid-long term.

btw, excellent group, thanks for having me.

Mark Wenig

On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 8:03 PM, Jim Starkey <jstarkey@nimbusdb.com> wrote:

Chris Marino wrote:
> Gang,
>
> Interesting post here from James Hamilton from Microsoft's Live team
> with an analysis on the costs of running a large data center.  Power
> consumption is a distant 3rd right now....
>
> However, if you add in power distribution and cooling, then it bumps up
> to number two.  From here he forecasts that server are getter cheaper
> and power is getting more expensive, so soon power will the largest
> cost.
>
> http://perspectives.mvdirona.com/2008/11/28/CostOfPowerInLargeScaleDataC
> enters.aspx
>
> I guess you could quibble with some of the numbers, but there they are
> for you to dial in whatever you want.
>

OK, this inspired me to buy an ammeter and figure out what my servers
actually draw in power.

As previously discussed, I'm running quad core Intel processors w/ 4 GB
memory and 2 Gigabit Ethernet ports and a disk.  The first batch were
about $1,220 each; the second batch were $1,152 each.  Add maybe $50
each for the rack, cables, KVM, and switch.  That leaves power.  Oh, and
$59.95 for an AC ammeter.

After booting, the servers settle down to about .67 amps or about 82
watts.  At New England small office electrical rates, that works out to
$123.73 per year per server running 24 / 7.

So the cost of power is about 10% of the capital cost.  Total out of
pocket for the first year is $1,373.  For the second year, $123.73.

The EC2 equivalent is over $7,000 per server, is based on much lower
performance, and is subject to additional costs for compute.

Please, somebody explain why Amazon is a bargain.

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[ Cloud Computing ] Re: A good analysis of data center costs. Servers dominate...for now.

Chris Marino wrote:
> Gang,
>
> Interesting post here from James Hamilton from Microsoft's Live team
> with an analysis on the costs of running a large data center. Power
> consumption is a distant 3rd right now....
>
> However, if you add in power distribution and cooling, then it bumps up
> to number two. From here he forecasts that server are getter cheaper
> and power is getting more expensive, so soon power will the largest
> cost.
>
> http://perspectives.mvdirona.com/2008/11/28/CostOfPowerInLargeScaleDataC
> enters.aspx
>
> I guess you could quibble with some of the numbers, but there they are
> for you to dial in whatever you want.
>

OK, this inspired me to buy an ammeter and figure out what my servers
actually draw in power.

As previously discussed, I'm running quad core Intel processors w/ 4 GB
memory and 2 Gigabit Ethernet ports and a disk. The first batch were
about $1,220 each; the second batch were $1,152 each. Add maybe $50
each for the rack, cables, KVM, and switch. That leaves power. Oh, and
$59.95 for an AC ammeter.

After booting, the servers settle down to about .67 amps or about 82
watts. At New England small office electrical rates, that works out to
$123.73 per year per server running 24 / 7.

So the cost of power is about 10% of the capital cost. Total out of
pocket for the first year is $1,373. For the second year, $123.73.

The EC2 equivalent is over $7,000 per server, is based on much lower
performance, and is subject to additional costs for compute.

Please, somebody explain why Amazon is a bargain.

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[ Cloud Computing ] Re: Cloud - Looking in the Future [Technology break]

Let's see. Microsoft wrote off two complete incarnations of things
called Windows before they had one worth fixing. They also wrote off
two versions of OS2 before starting over with NT. X-Windows went
through many, many evolutions before settling at X11. The original
published JVM specification was (if I remember correctly) version 41.

Evolution has to precede standardization (otherwise we'd all be running
OSF/1). We're just starting now.

The very best way to halt innovation is to establish a standard before
the technology matures.

Tarry Singh wrote:
> The true Cloud Gods might still end up being Amazon and Google, if we
> look forward another 10 years (That reminds me, I will be writing my
> next Cloud Prediction series - 3 on this one), in 2020, we may see a
> stronger Google and Amazon.
>
> Both have built their systems (HW, SW, Services etc)
>
> - themselves (bund hw, disks , appliances from refurbishable
> appliances and bung services/code from reusable software principles -
> meaning good (less garbage, leaks) and simple programming)
> - on free stuff
> - with extremely low cost operatorship / call it commodituzation-aware
> cloud infra, if you will
>
>
> They are increasingly building their reputation of being reliable
> leaders in this arena, don't get too excited on all the news (some
> analyst/Gartner/IDC' ish sponsored) around other parties who are
> converging their apps/services but still have to figure out how to
> survive by betting on the horse that "ought to make less money for
> you". Oracle is struggling there and other big players will have to go
> through the grind and shed a lot of fat should they want to survive.
>
> So the future will be for the ones who are nimble, lean,
> self-servicing and allow for customer-cetric/participatory involvement.
>
> /ts
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 9:23 PM, Jan Klincewicz
> <jan.klincewicz@gmail.com <mailto:jan.klincewicz@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> A lot of folks bet on Token Ring, OS/2. Micro-Channel
> Architecture, etc. and still survived (though the saying "nobody
> ever got fired for buying IBM" lost a lot of it's cachet .)
>
> A number of /de facto /standards have emerged because they benefit
> everyone. Think of TCP/IP, RJ45, ASCII, SCSI, FC/AL, SNMP, XML
> etc. There is a lot of interoperability of both hardware,
> protocols and file formats because the market demended them.
>
> That being said, try to fit a Dell SCSI drive into an HP server,
> or an IBM blade into a Sun enclosure. A lot of proprietariness
> (is that a word?) exists to the benefit of vendors only.
>
> Fortunately, one of the great side-benefits of virtualization is
> the abstraction of OS instances from hardware, and as standards
> emerge (from things like project Kensho) there willbe increasing
> inter-operability of cumpute instances between and among hypervisors.
>
> Of course, I emphasize the lower levels of the stack, because I
> know it best, but those of you ou there who operate at the API
> level with apps are probably seeing similar rays of hope.
>
> We do not really have regulatory bodies to enforce things, but
> standards orgainizations like the IEEE, ISO, ANSI etc. help users
> force vendors to be more interoperable because of the power of the
> RFP. Look at the grief the state of Mass caused Microsoft
> (especially in the press) over file formats for Office. When
> State and Federal govenments chime in (look what Sweden did for
> emmissions standards) vendors tow the line or lose to more
> concialatory (if less powerful) competitors.
>
> Having worked for vendors for the past dozen years or so, I can
> confirm that they shape their products to the whims of users now
> much more than they did in 1997. While every vendor hates
> "commoditization" which can decrease the "percieved value" of
> their wares, there is enough creativity out there to add value in
> any space and still make a profit. Adhering to standards does not
> mean the end of differentiation, and, in fact, can even strengthen
> the overall quality of products (and services) within those confines.
>
> Management software, for example, that helps an IT department
> conform to ITIL best practices is far more valuable to end-users
> than a peoporietary approach conceived in a vacuum according to
> the views of desighers who have never worked in a data center.
>
> Though compliance to HIPPA and Sarb-OX may seem to strangle
> innovation for those who view these as unneccesary regulation,
> cloud providers who overcome these hurdleds will gain much greater
> (and faster) acceptance in those verticals for which these are
> non-optional.
>
> It may seem cliche', but all challenges provide opportunities.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 1:10 PM, Bob Slook <bslook@csc.com
> <mailto:bslook@csc.com>> wrote:
>
>
> All I can say is great things often rise from chaos. Look at
> the formation
> of this planet.
>
> All visionaries and early adaptors have to deal with lack of
> standards and
> patterns. You need a lot of perseverance and the willingness
> to take some
> risks. If you bet on the right conventions you can succeed
> big. Pick the
> wrong ones and you can crash. Luckily there is often a big
> reward for
> those who pioneer so people keep trying things.
>
> I'm curious as to emerging patterns and trying to piece them
> together for
> figure out where this whole thing is headed. Got any thoughts?
>
>
> Bob Slook
>
> This is a PRIVATE message. If you are not the intended
> recipient, please
> delete without copying and kindly advise us by e-mail of the
> mistake in
> delivery.
> NOTE: Regardless of content, this e-mail shall not operate to
> bind CSC to
> any order or other contract unless pursuant to explicit
> written agreement
> or government initiative expressly permitting the use of
> e-mail for such
> purpose.
>
>
>
> "Malay Das"
> <malay.das@gmail.
> com>
> To
> Sent by:
> cloud-computing@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:cloud-computing@googlegroups.com>
> cloud-computing@g
> cc
> ooglegroups.com <http://ooglegroups.com>
>
> Subject
> [ Cloud Computing ]
> Cloud - Looking
> 11/28/2008 01:13 in the Future
> [Technology break]
> AM
>
>
> Please respond to
> cloud-computing@g
> ooglegroups.com <http://ooglegroups.com>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> As I stayed back home due to severe cough bouts I was
> wondering about the
> various questions people ask me within my company (I work for
> a SI out of
> India)
>
> Usually this is my pitch - Cloud today is mreely shadow of the
> future
> possibilities, which will free us from all worries about
> incompatible/un-interoprable technologies and solely focus on
> developing
> innovative business solutions. But then it appears to me very
> surreal
> almost bordering hopeless optimism. So I thought I would ping the
> collective wisdom for some insight into the future. Note: I am
> bound to
> love chaos as this keeps IT guys like me relevant :-)
>
> As it appears the cloud dream promises a world where in I can
> command one
> unit of messaging, two units of SQL services and so on [may be
> some other
> measurement]. Now if we transpose the existing technologies
> into the cloud
> space the incompatibilities will remain. Which means our
> applications will
> not work like light bulbs [I think we will be ok with
> occasionally carrying
> an adapter just like when we travel between countries].
>
> Are we looking at a cloud standard body with regulations and
> all technology
> providers plugging in with respective optimizations to compete
> [Just like
> the Grid and power suppliers].
>
> Who will be this governing body and is there any hope of
> collective
> agreement from our experience in standardization experiments?
>
> So, What lies in the future?
> 1. Will we end up with existing chaos but in a new playground
> called
> cloud/internet
> 2. Cloud will remain the picnic ground (rather than a
> restaurant service)
> with people bringing their own food and utensils
>
> I think I have read too much of Nicholas Carr. Thanks for
> reading the
> rambling.
>

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[ Cloud Computing ] Re: Cloud - Looking in the Future [Technology break]

S.R. Venkatramanan wrote:
> Isn't that called the Grid, then?
>
> S.R.
> Jim Starkey wrote:
>
>
>> When clouds evolve to point that applications and databases can utilize
>> whatever resources then need to meet demand without the constraint of
>> single machine limitations, we'll have something really neat.
>>
>>
>>

I hate to caught up in a nomenclature war, but I don't think so. In a
cloud, all machines are more or less equivalent (not to identical).
Security is at the cloud border not between machines in the cloud. And
machines can be arbitrarily added or removed without manual changes to
the configuration.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in a grid specific services are hosted on
specific subsets of machines, and each machines manages its own
security, albeit within a grid wide authentication system.

The Google search engine fits my model for a cloud. Everything in it
does search. Machines die without consequences and get replaced without
reconfiguration. It adapts dynamically to the resources available.

Nimbus is predicated on the Google model. Oracle RAC, on the other hand,
is much more like a grid. Amazon EC2 is just a server farm.

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[ Cloud Computing ] Re: Cloud - Looking in the Future [Technology break]

Like everything else, it will be complementary.  Again, this is an evolutionary step, not a revolutionary one.

 

---

From: cloud-computing@googlegroups.com [cloud-computing@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Malay Das [malay.das@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 1:22 PM
To: cloud-computing@googlegroups.com
Subject: [ Cloud Computing ] Re: Cloud - Looking in the Future [Technology break]

I was more curious about general perception about the cloud movement in terms of being the next computing platform vs. being a complementary for specific business cases like elastic demand, DC cost, Trials, web-native apps etc. etc.. If the former then how will it unfold. Is "lowered expectations" the way forward meaning that apps will be lot simpler and watered down, focused than majority of offerings today..

On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 11:40 PM, Bob Slook <bslook@csc.com> wrote:

            "Malay Das"
            <malay.das@gmail.

            com>                                                       To
            Sent by:                  cloud-computing@googlegroups.com
            cloud-computing@g                                          cc
            ooglegroups.com
                                                                  Subject
                                      [ Cloud Computing ] Cloud - Looking
            11/28/2008 01:13          in the Future [Technology break]
            AM


            Please respond to
            cloud-computing@g
             ooglegroups.com

As I stayed back home due to severe cough bouts I was wondering about the
various questions people ask me within my company (I work for a SI out of
India)

Usually this is my pitch - Cloud today is mreely shadow of the future
possibilities, which will free us from all worries about
incompatible/un-interoprable technologies and solely focus on developing
innovative business solutions. But then it appears to me very surreal
almost bordering hopeless optimism. So I thought I would ping the
collective wisdom for some insight into the future. Note: I am bound to
love chaos as this keeps IT guys like me relevant :-)

As it appears the cloud dream promises a world where in I can command one
unit of messaging, two units of SQL services and so on [may be some other
measurement]. Now if we transpose the existing technologies into the cloud
space the incompatibilities will remain. Which means our applications will
not work like light bulbs [I think we will be ok with occasionally carrying
an adapter just like when we travel between countries].

Are we looking at a cloud standard body with regulations and all technology
providers plugging in with respective optimizations to compete [Just like
the Grid and power suppliers].

Who will be this governing body and is there any hope of collective
agreement from our experience in standardization experiments?

So, What lies in the future?
1. Will we end up with existing chaos but in a new playground called
cloud/internet
2. Cloud will remain the picnic ground (rather than a restaurant service)
with people bringing their own food and utensils

I think I have read too much of Nicholas Carr. Thanks for reading the
rambling.

-Malay Das

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[ Cloud Computing ] Re: Cloud - Looking in the Future [Technology break]

The true Cloud Gods might still end up being Amazon and Google, if we look forward another 10 years (That reminds me, I will be writing my next Cloud Prediction series - 3 on this one), in 2020, we may see a stronger Google and Amazon.

Both have built their systems (HW, SW, Services etc)

-  themselves (bund hw, disks , appliances from refurbishable appliances and bung services/code from reusable software principles - meaning good (less garbage, leaks) and simple programming)
- on free stuff
- with extremely low cost operatorship / call it commodituzation-aware cloud infra, if you will


They are increasingly building their reputation of being reliable leaders in this arena, don't get too excited on all the news (some analyst/Gartner/IDC' ish sponsored) around other parties who are converging their apps/services but still have to figure out how to survive by betting on the horse that "ought to make less money for you". Oracle is struggling there and other big players will have to go through the grind and shed a lot of fat should they want to survive.

So the future will be for the ones who are nimble, lean, self-servicing and allow for customer-cetric/participatory involvement.

/ts

On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 9:23 PM, Jan Klincewicz <jan.klincewicz@gmail.com> wrote:

A lot of folks bet on Token Ring, OS/2. Micro-Channel Architecture, etc. and still survived (though the saying "nobody ever got fired for buying IBM" lost a lot of it's cachet .)

A number of de facto standards have emerged because they benefit everyone.  Think of TCP/IP, RJ45, ASCII, SCSI, FC/AL, SNMP, XML etc.  There is a lot of interoperability of both hardware, protocols and file formats because the market demended them.

That being said, try to fit a Dell SCSI drive into an HP server, or an IBM blade into a Sun enclosure.  A lot of proprietariness (is that a word?) exists to the benefit of vendors only.

Fortunately, one of the great side-benefits of virtualization is the abstraction of OS instances from hardware, and as standards emerge (from things like project Kensho) there willbe increasing inter-operability of cumpute instances between and among hypervisors.

Of course, I emphasize the lower levels of the stack, because I know it best, but those of you ou there who operate at the API level with apps are probably seeing similar rays of hope.

We do not really have regulatory bodies to enforce things, but standards orgainizations like the IEEE, ISO, ANSI etc. help users force vendors to be more interoperable because of the power of the RFP.  Look at the grief the state of Mass caused Microsoft (especially in the press) over file formats for Office.  When State and Federal govenments chime in (look what Sweden did for emmissions standards) vendors tow the line or lose to more concialatory (if less powerful) competitors.

Having worked for vendors for the past dozen years or so, I can confirm that they shape their products to the whims of users now much more than they did in 1997.  While every vendor hates "commoditization" which can decrease the "percieved value" of their wares, there is enough creativity out there to add value in any space and still make a profit.  Adhering to standards does not mean the end of differentiation, and, in fact, can even strengthen the overall quality of products (and services) within those confines.

Management software, for example, that helps an IT department conform to ITIL best practices is far more valuable to end-users than a peoporietary approach conceived in a vacuum according to the views of desighers who have never worked in a data center.

Though compliance to HIPPA and Sarb-OX may seem to strangle innovation for those who view these as unneccesary regulation, cloud providers who overcome these hurdleds will gain much greater (and faster) acceptance in those verticals for which these are non-optional.

It may seem cliche', but all challenges provide opportunities.

 

On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 1:10 PM, Bob Slook <bslook@csc.com> wrote:

All I can say is great things often rise from chaos.  Look at the formation
of this planet.

All visionaries and early adaptors have to deal with lack of standards and
patterns.  You need a lot of perseverance and the willingness to take some
risks.   If you bet on the right conventions you can succeed big.  Pick the
wrong ones and you can crash.   Luckily there is often a big reward for
those who pioneer so people keep trying things.

I'm curious as to emerging patterns and trying to piece them together for
figure out where this whole thing is headed.   Got any thoughts?


Bob Slook

This is a PRIVATE message. If you are not the intended recipient, please
delete without copying and kindly advise us by e-mail of the mistake in
delivery.
NOTE: Regardless of content, this e-mail shall not operate to bind CSC to
any order or other contract unless pursuant to explicit written agreement
or government initiative expressly permitting the use of e-mail for such
purpose.



            "Malay Das"
            <malay.das@gmail.
            com>                                                       To
            Sent by:                  cloud-computing@googlegroups.com
            cloud-computing@g                                          cc
            ooglegroups.com
                                                                  Subject
                                      [ Cloud Computing ] Cloud - Looking
            11/28/2008 01:13          in the Future [Technology break]
            AM


            Please respond to
            cloud-computing@g
             ooglegroups.com






As I stayed back home due to severe cough bouts I was wondering about the
various questions people ask me within my company (I work for a SI out of
India)

Usually this is my pitch - Cloud today is mreely shadow of the future
possibilities, which will free us from all worries about
incompatible/un-interoprable technologies and solely focus on developing
innovative business solutions. But then it appears to me very surreal
almost bordering hopeless optimism. So I thought I would ping the
collective wisdom for some insight into the future. Note: I am bound to
love chaos as this keeps IT guys like me relevant :-)

As it appears the cloud dream promises a world where in I can command one
unit of messaging, two units of SQL services and so on [may be some other
measurement]. Now if we transpose the existing technologies into the cloud
space the incompatibilities will remain. Which means our applications will
not work like light bulbs [I think we will be ok with occasionally carrying
an adapter just like when we travel between countries].

Are we looking at a cloud standard body with regulations and all technology
providers plugging in with respective optimizations to compete [Just like
the Grid and power suppliers].

Who will be this governing body and is there any hope of collective
agreement from our experience in standardization experiments?

So, What lies in the future?
1. Will we end up with existing chaos but in a new playground called
cloud/internet
2. Cloud will remain the picnic ground (rather than a restaurant service)
with people bringing their own food and utensils

I think I have read too much of Nicholas Carr. Thanks for reading the
rambling.

-Malay Das

--

Cheers,
Jan

[ Cloud Computing ] Re: Cloud - Looking in the Future [Technology break]

Isn't that called the Grid, then?

S.R.
Jim Starkey wrote:

>
>When clouds evolve to point that applications and databases can utilize
>whatever resources then need to meet demand without the constraint of
>single machine limitations, we'll have something really neat.
>
>
>

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[ Cloud Computing ] Re: Cloud - Looking in the Future [Technology break]

A lot of folks bet on Token Ring, OS/2. Micro-Channel Architecture, etc. and still survived (though the saying "nobody ever got fired for buying IBM" lost a lot of it's cachet .)

A number of de facto standards have emerged because they benefit everyone.  Think of TCP/IP, RJ45, ASCII, SCSI, FC/AL, SNMP, XML etc.  There is a lot of interoperability of both hardware, protocols and file formats because the market demended them.

That being said, try to fit a Dell SCSI drive into an HP server, or an IBM blade into a Sun enclosure.  A lot of proprietariness (is that a word?) exists to the benefit of vendors only.

Fortunately, one of the great side-benefits of virtualization is the abstraction of OS instances from hardware, and as standards emerge (from things like project Kensho) there willbe increasing inter-operability of cumpute instances between and among hypervisors.

Of course, I emphasize the lower levels of the stack, because I know it best, but those of you ou there who operate at the API level with apps are probably seeing similar rays of hope.

We do not really have regulatory bodies to enforce things, but standards orgainizations like the IEEE, ISO, ANSI etc. help users force vendors to be more interoperable because of the power of the RFP.  Look at the grief the state of Mass caused Microsoft (especially in the press) over file formats for Office.  When State and Federal govenments chime in (look what Sweden did for emmissions standards) vendors tow the line or lose to more concialatory (if less powerful) competitors.

Having worked for vendors for the past dozen years or so, I can confirm that they shape their products to the whims of users now much more than they did in 1997.  While every vendor hates "commoditization" which can decrease the "percieved value" of their wares, there is enough creativity out there to add value in any space and still make a profit.  Adhering to standards does not mean the end of differentiation, and, in fact, can even strengthen the overall quality of products (and services) within those confines.

Management software, for example, that helps an IT department conform to ITIL best practices is far more valuable to end-users than a peoporietary approach conceived in a vacuum according to the views of desighers who have never worked in a data center.

Though compliance to HIPPA and Sarb-OX may seem to strangle innovation for those who view these as unneccesary regulation, cloud providers who overcome these hurdleds will gain much greater (and faster) acceptance in those verticals for which these are non-optional.

It may seem cliche', but all challenges provide opportunities.
 

On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 1:10 PM, Bob Slook <bslook@csc.com> wrote:

All I can say is great things often rise from chaos.  Look at the formation
of this planet.

All visionaries and early adaptors have to deal with lack of standards and
patterns.  You need a lot of perseverance and the willingness to take some
risks.   If you bet on the right conventions you can succeed big.  Pick the
wrong ones and you can crash.   Luckily there is often a big reward for
those who pioneer so people keep trying things.

I'm curious as to emerging patterns and trying to piece them together for
figure out where this whole thing is headed.   Got any thoughts?


Bob Slook

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            "Malay Das"
            <malay.das@gmail.
            com>                                                       To
            Sent by:                  cloud-computing@googlegroups.com
            cloud-computing@g                                          cc
            ooglegroups.com
                                                                  Subject
                                      [ Cloud Computing ] Cloud - Looking
            11/28/2008 01:13          in the Future [Technology break]
            AM


            Please respond to
            cloud-computing@g
             ooglegroups.com






As I stayed back home due to severe cough bouts I was wondering about the
various questions people ask me within my company (I work for a SI out of
India)

Usually this is my pitch - Cloud today is mreely shadow of the future
possibilities, which will free us from all worries about
incompatible/un-interoprable technologies and solely focus on developing
innovative business solutions. But then it appears to me very surreal
almost bordering hopeless optimism. So I thought I would ping the
collective wisdom for some insight into the future. Note: I am bound to
love chaos as this keeps IT guys like me relevant :-)

As it appears the cloud dream promises a world where in I can command one
unit of messaging, two units of SQL services and so on [may be some other
measurement]. Now if we transpose the existing technologies into the cloud
space the incompatibilities will remain. Which means our applications will
not work like light bulbs [I think we will be ok with occasionally carrying
an adapter just like when we travel between countries].

Are we looking at a cloud standard body with regulations and all technology
providers plugging in with respective optimizations to compete [Just like
the Grid and power suppliers].

Who will be this governing body and is there any hope of collective
agreement from our experience in standardization experiments?

So, What lies in the future?
1. Will we end up with existing chaos but in a new playground called
cloud/internet
2. Cloud will remain the picnic ground (rather than a restaurant service)
with people bringing their own food and utensils

I think I have read too much of Nicholas Carr. Thanks for reading the
rambling.

-Malay Das

--
Cheers,
Jan

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[ Cloud Computing ] Re: Cloud - Looking in the Future [Technology break]

Malay Das wrote:
> I was more curious about general perception about the cloud movement
> in terms of being the next computing platform vs. being a
> complementary for specific business cases like elastic demand, DC
> cost, Trials, web-native apps etc. etc.. If the former then how will
> it unfold. Is "lowered expectations" the way forward meaning that apps
> will be lot simpler and watered down, focused than majority of
> offerings today..
>

If you view the cloud as a new model for scalable applications, it is a
radical change in computing platform. Most people see the cloud through
the lens of EC2, which is just another way to run a server that you have
to manage and control, then the cloud is little more than a rather
boring business model.

When clouds evolve to point that applications and databases can utilize
whatever resources then need to meet demand without the constraint of
single machine limitations, we'll have something really neat.

--
Jim Starkey
President, NimbusDB, Inc.
978 526-1376

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[ Cloud Computing ] Re: A good analysis of data center costs. Servers dominate...for now.

Most would do 10 years on the facility...

On 11/30/08, Max <max.seven.max@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It should be 15 year facility amortization and 3 years server
> amortization.
>
> On Nov 30, 5:20 am, "Chris Marino" <christopher.c.mar...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> Gang,
>>
>> Interesting post here from James Hamilton from Microsoft's Live team
>> with an analysis on the costs of running a large data center. Power
>> consumption is a distant 3rd right now....
>>
>> However, if you add in power distribution and cooling, then it bumps up
>> to number two. From here he forecasts that server are getter cheaper
>> and power is getting more expensive, so soon power will the largest
>> cost.
>>
>> http://perspectives.mvdirona.com/2008/11/28/CostOfPowerInLargeScaleDataC
>> enters.aspx
>>
>> I guess you could quibble with some of the numbers, but there they are
>> for you to dial in whatever you want.
>>
>> CM
>
> >
>

--
Sent from my mobile device

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[ Cloud Computing ] Re: Cloud - Looking in the Future [Technology break]

I was more curious about general perception about the cloud movement in terms of being the next computing platform vs. being a complementary for specific business cases like elastic demand, DC cost, Trials, web-native apps etc. etc.. If the former then how will it unfold. Is "lowered expectations" the way forward meaning that apps will be lot simpler and watered down, focused than majority of offerings today..

On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 11:40 PM, Bob Slook <bslook@csc.com> wrote:

            "Malay Das"
            <malay.das@gmail.

            com>                                                       To
            Sent by:                  cloud-computing@googlegroups.com
            cloud-computing@g                                          cc
            ooglegroups.com
                                                                  Subject
                                      [ Cloud Computing ] Cloud - Looking
            11/28/2008 01:13          in the Future [Technology break]
            AM


            Please respond to
            cloud-computing@g
             ooglegroups.com

As I stayed back home due to severe cough bouts I was wondering about the
various questions people ask me within my company (I work for a SI out of
India)

Usually this is my pitch - Cloud today is mreely shadow of the future
possibilities, which will free us from all worries about
incompatible/un-interoprable technologies and solely focus on developing
innovative business solutions. But then it appears to me very surreal
almost bordering hopeless optimism. So I thought I would ping the
collective wisdom for some insight into the future. Note: I am bound to
love chaos as this keeps IT guys like me relevant :-)

As it appears the cloud dream promises a world where in I can command one
unit of messaging, two units of SQL services and so on [may be some other
measurement]. Now if we transpose the existing technologies into the cloud
space the incompatibilities will remain. Which means our applications will
not work like light bulbs [I think we will be ok with occasionally carrying
an adapter just like when we travel between countries].

Are we looking at a cloud standard body with regulations and all technology
providers plugging in with respective optimizations to compete [Just like
the Grid and power suppliers].

Who will be this governing body and is there any hope of collective
agreement from our experience in standardization experiments?

So, What lies in the future?
1. Will we end up with existing chaos but in a new playground called
cloud/internet
2. Cloud will remain the picnic ground (rather than a restaurant service)
with people bringing their own food and utensils

I think I have read too much of Nicholas Carr. Thanks for reading the
rambling.

-Malay Das

[ Cloud Computing ] Re: Cloud - Looking in the Future [Technology break]

All I can say is great things often rise from chaos. Look at the formation
of this planet.

All visionaries and early adaptors have to deal with lack of standards and
patterns. You need a lot of perseverance and the willingness to take some
risks. If you bet on the right conventions you can succeed big. Pick the
wrong ones and you can crash. Luckily there is often a big reward for
those who pioneer so people keep trying things.

I'm curious as to emerging patterns and trying to piece them together for
figure out where this whole thing is headed. Got any thoughts?

Bob Slook

This is a PRIVATE message. If you are not the intended recipient, please
delete without copying and kindly advise us by e-mail of the mistake in
delivery.
NOTE: Regardless of content, this e-mail shall not operate to bind CSC to
any order or other contract unless pursuant to explicit written agreement
or government initiative expressly permitting the use of e-mail for such
purpose.

"Malay Das"
<malay.das@gmail.
com> To
Sent by: cloud-computing@googlegroups.com
cloud-computing@g cc
ooglegroups.com
Subject
[ Cloud Computing ] Cloud - Looking
11/28/2008 01:13 in the Future [Technology break]
AM


Please respond to
cloud-computing@g
ooglegroups.com

As I stayed back home due to severe cough bouts I was wondering about the
various questions people ask me within my company (I work for a SI out of
India)

Usually this is my pitch - Cloud today is mreely shadow of the future
possibilities, which will free us from all worries about
incompatible/un-interoprable technologies and solely focus on developing
innovative business solutions. But then it appears to me very surreal
almost bordering hopeless optimism. So I thought I would ping the
collective wisdom for some insight into the future. Note: I am bound to
love chaos as this keeps IT guys like me relevant :-)

As it appears the cloud dream promises a world where in I can command one
unit of messaging, two units of SQL services and so on [may be some other
measurement]. Now if we transpose the existing technologies into the cloud
space the incompatibilities will remain. Which means our applications will
not work like light bulbs [I think we will be ok with occasionally carrying
an adapter just like when we travel between countries].

Are we looking at a cloud standard body with regulations and all technology
providers plugging in with respective optimizations to compete [Just like
the Grid and power suppliers].

Who will be this governing body and is there any hope of collective
agreement from our experience in standardization experiments?

So, What lies in the future?
1. Will we end up with existing chaos but in a new playground called
cloud/internet
2. Cloud will remain the picnic ground (rather than a restaurant service)
with people bringing their own food and utensils

I think I have read too much of Nicholas Carr. Thanks for reading the
rambling.

-Malay Das

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[ Cloud Computing ] Re: A good analysis of data center costs. Servers dominate...for now.

It should be 15 year facility amortization and 3 years server
amortization.

On Nov 30, 5:20 am, "Chris Marino" <christopher.c.mar...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Gang,
>
> Interesting post here from James Hamilton from Microsoft's Live team
> with an analysis on the costs of running a large data center.  Power
> consumption is a distant 3rd right now....
>
> However, if you add in power distribution and cooling, then it bumps up
> to number two.  From here he forecasts that server are getter cheaper
> and power is getting more expensive, so soon power will the largest
> cost.
>
> http://perspectives.mvdirona.com/2008/11/28/CostOfPowerInLargeScaleDataC
> enters.aspx
>
> I guess you could quibble with some of the numbers, but there they are
> for you to dial in whatever you want.
>
> CM

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[ Cloud Computing ] Re: A good analysis of data center costs. Servers dominate...for now.

I think there is mistake in server amortization. 15 years is too much.
Most likely is it 3 years like DC.

On Nov 30, 5:20 am, "Chris Marino" <christopher.c.mar...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Gang,
>
> Interesting post here from James Hamilton from Microsoft's Live team
> with an analysis on the costs of running a large data center.  Power
> consumption is a distant 3rd right now....
>
> However, if you add in power distribution and cooling, then it bumps up
> to number two.  From here he forecasts that server are getter cheaper
> and power is getting more expensive, so soon power will the largest
> cost.
>
> http://perspectives.mvdirona.com/2008/11/28/CostOfPowerInLargeScaleDataC
> enters.aspx
>
> I guess you could quibble with some of the numbers, but there they are
> for you to dial in whatever you want.
>
> CM

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[ Cloud Computing ] Re: A good analysis of data center costs. Servers dominate...for now.

If you place datacenter in some cold place like north pole, north
canada or siberia then you can regenerate energy from heat instead of
paying for cooling.
Antarctica is too far from where most people leave and ping would be
too high.

On Nov 30, 5:20 am, "Chris Marino" <christopher.c.mar...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Gang,
>
> Interesting post here from James Hamilton from Microsoft's Live team
> with an analysis on the costs of running a large data center.  Power
> consumption is a distant 3rd right now....
>
> However, if you add in power distribution and cooling, then it bumps up
> to number two.  From here he forecasts that server are getter cheaper
> and power is getting more expensive, so soon power will the largest
> cost.
>
> http://perspectives.mvdirona.com/2008/11/28/CostOfPowerInLargeScaleDataC
> enters.aspx
>
> I guess you could quibble with some of the numbers, but there they are
> for you to dial in whatever you want.
>
> CM

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[ Cloud Computing ] Re: A good analysis of data center costs. Servers dominate...for now.

I'm gonna have to play around with the assumptions that he's taken and see if they match with what I have found/experienced/assumed.

On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 4:20 AM, Chris Marino <christopher.c.marino@gmail.com> wrote:

Gang,

Interesting post here from James Hamilton from Microsoft's Live team
with an analysis on the costs of running a large data center.  Power
consumption is a distant 3rd right now....

However, if you add in power distribution and cooling, then it bumps up
to number two.  From here he forecasts that server are getter cheaper
and power is getting more expensive, so soon power will the largest
cost.

http://perspectives.mvdirona.com/2008/11/28/CostOfPowerInLargeScaleDataC
enters.aspx

I guess you could quibble with some of the numbers, but there they are
for you to dial in whatever you want.

CM

--
Kind Regards,

Tarry Singh
______________________________________________________________
Founder, Avastu: Research-Analysis-Ideation
"Do something with your ideas!"
http://www.avastu.com
Business Cell: +31630617633
Private Cell: +31629159400
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tarrysingh
Blogs: http://tarrysingh.blogspot.com

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[ Cloud Computing ] A good analysis of data center costs. Servers dominate...for now.

Gang,

Interesting post here from James Hamilton from Microsoft's Live team
with an analysis on the costs of running a large data center. Power
consumption is a distant 3rd right now....

However, if you add in power distribution and cooling, then it bumps up
to number two. From here he forecasts that server are getter cheaper
and power is getting more expensive, so soon power will the largest
cost.

http://perspectives.mvdirona.com/2008/11/28/CostOfPowerInLargeScaleDataC
enters.aspx

I guess you could quibble with some of the numbers, but there they are
for you to dial in whatever you want.

CM

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[ Cloud Computing ] Re: Cloud - Looking in the Future [Technology break]

There's a lot more reading that just Nick's book, there are many initiatives of such standards taking shape. There will be an eventual shift from the current cynefin dilemma state to a non-chaotic/lesser chaotic state.

/TarrySingh

On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 7:13 AM, Malay Das <malay.das@gmail.com> wrote:

As I stayed back home due to severe cough bouts I was wondering about the various questions people ask me within my company (I work for a SI out of India)

Usually this is my pitch - Cloud today is mreely shadow of the future possibilities, which will free us from all worries about incompatible/un-interoprable technologies and solely focus on developing innovative business solutions. But then it appears to me very surreal almost bordering hopeless optimism. So I thought I would ping the collective wisdom for some insight into the future. Note: I am bound to love chaos as this keeps IT guys like me relevant :-)

As it appears the cloud dream promises a world where in I can command one unit of messaging, two units of SQL services and so on [may be some other measurement]. Now if we transpose the existing technologies into the cloud space the incompatibilities will remain. Which means our applications will not work like light bulbs [I think we will be ok with occasionally carrying an adapter just like when we travel between countries].

Are we looking at a cloud standard body with regulations and all technology providers plugging in with respective optimizations to compete [Just like the Grid and power suppliers].

Who will be this governing body and is there any hope of collective agreement from our experience in standardization experiments?

So, What lies in the future?

1. Will we end up with existing chaos but in a new playground called cloud/internet

2. Cloud will remain the picnic ground (rather than a restaurant service) with people bringing their own food and utensils

I think I have read too much of Nicholas Carr. Thanks for reading the rambling.

-Malay Das

--
Kind Regards,

Tarry Singh
______________________________________________________________
Founder, Avastu: Research-Analysis-Ideation
"Do something with your ideas!"
http://www.avastu.com
Business Cell: +31630617633
Private Cell: +31629159400
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tarrysingh
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[ Cloud Computing ] Cloud - Looking in the Future [Technology break]

As I stayed back home due to severe cough bouts I was wondering about the various questions people ask me within my company (I work for a SI out of India)

Usually this is my pitch - Cloud today is mreely shadow of the future possibilities, which will free us from all worries about incompatible/un-interoprable technologies and solely focus on developing innovative business solutions. But then it appears to me very surreal almost bordering hopeless optimism. So I thought I would ping the collective wisdom for some insight into the future. Note: I am bound to love chaos as this keeps IT guys like me relevant :-)

As it appears the cloud dream promises a world where in I can command one unit of messaging, two units of SQL services and so on [may be some other measurement]. Now if we transpose the existing technologies into the cloud space the incompatibilities will remain. Which means our applications will not work like light bulbs [I think we will be ok with occasionally carrying an adapter just like when we travel between countries].

Are we looking at a cloud standard body with regulations and all technology providers plugging in with respective optimizations to compete [Just like the Grid and power suppliers].

Who will be this governing body and is there any hope of collective agreement from our experience in standardization experiments?

So, What lies in the future?

1. Will we end up with existing chaos but in a new playground called cloud/internet

2. Cloud will remain the picnic ground (rather than a restaurant service) with people bringing their own food and utensils

I think I have read too much of Nicholas Carr. Thanks for reading the rambling.

-Malay Das

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[ Cloud Computing ] Re: Infoworld's take on Azure vis-a-vis Google Apps, etc

On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 12:03 AM, Adwait Ullal <adwait.ullal@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://weblog.infoworld.com/enterprisewindows/archives/2008/11/peering_into_mi.html?source=NLC-ENTWINDOW&cgd=2008-11-26
>
> Thoughts?
>

Sounds like an apples to oranges comparison (with the only
relationship being that both are growing in trees).

./alex
--
.w( the_mindstorm )p.
Alexandru Popescu

> - Adwait
>
> --
> Adwait Ullal
>
> w: http://www.adwait.com
> p: (408) 898-2581
>
> >
>

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[ Cloud Computing ] Re: Azure SQL Service

Also expect a lot of convergence to facilitate the governance model where Data Governance will be top/hot issue in the Cloud.  Here, using SQL Server to also map unstructured data and storing it as pointers (think CLOBs, BLOBs etc) within the CloudSQLContainer, may be very popular. There a lot of customers will choose to also have their massive unstructured data (NFS/Shared), using SharePoint. There are some smaller vendors scratching the surface and making calls to customers, very soon MSFT will do a lot of it , itself.

So also expect a version of the old and forgotten HDBMS as well.

Tarry

On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 4:42 PM, Dmitry Sotnikov <dsotnikov@gmail.com> wrote:

My impression is that relational DB and reporting services are on the roadmap but not available at the moment. I don't think there are any public dates for these though.

Dmitry

On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 9:49 AM, Malay Das <malay.das@gmail.com> wrote:

There seems to be difference in the way SQL Services is projected in MS site vs. David Chappell's paper on Azure (oct 2008). The site (http://www.microsoft.com/azure/sql.mspx) claims to offer relational queries AS-IS, as we know them in on-premise scenarios. That's the impression I got, at least.

Possibilities:

a) This is the future where the service is going with what is out there now in the form of key-value/container/entity etc.

b) The SQL interface is preserved (works AS-IS) while the underlying structures have changed to accommodate cloud principles (manageability perspective)

I am not sure which one is true - any insight will be appreciated. What did I miss?

'

This is also in light of big debate going around RDBMS in cloud in this group. 

--
Kind Regards,

Tarry Singh
______________________________________________________________
Founder, Avastu: Research-Analysis-Ideation
"Do something with your ideas!"
http://www.avastu.com
Business Cell: +31630617633
Private Cell: +31629159400
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tarrysingh
Blogs: http://tarrysingh.blogspot.com

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[ Cloud Computing ] Re: Infoworld's take on Azure vis-a-vis Google Apps, etc

Interesting how they are comparing Azure (platform solution) to Google Apps (productivity software) and not to Google App Engine which would have been a better fit for comparison.

Dmitry
http://cloudenterprise.info

On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 1:03 AM, Adwait Ullal <adwait.ullal@gmail.com> wrote:

http://weblog.infoworld.com/enterprisewindows/archives/2008/11/peering_into_mi.html?source=NLC-ENTWINDOW&cgd=2008-11-26

 

Thoughts?

 

- Adwait

--
Adwait Ullal

w: http://www.adwait.com
p: (408) 898-2581

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